Some good comments in response to a blog post I came across today

I was researching the issue of feminists pulling fire alarms to disrupt MHRA meetings or similar, and came across a 2013 blog post by some feminist or another. The post was dross but I rather liked several responses provided by one of the readers (‘East1956’), who also posts in AVfM I see. It was well written whoever you are, and worth saving and repeating here:

“It seems to me that in its latest evolution feminism wants to project itself as a movement that can represent women and men against the “Patriarchy”, now an infinitely mutable entity that allegedly oppresses both men and women. In this evolution feminists abrogate to themselves the right to decide what and how men, an enormous & diverse constituency, should think and express their perceptions.

Feminism has since the 70′s forewarned of the “Backlash”, and reactionary response to social, economic and political change initiated by feminist influenced change.

IMO there is a profound sense of hypocrisy in some of the stances taken by feminists when they decry some of the extreme statements made by individual men associated with MRA’s and other men’s awareness movements. Hypocritical because in its earlier phases those within the feminist movement have on one hand called for some fairly violent things to be done to men, and have insisted on the validity of narrow female perspectives of events.

Since the 90′s in response to feminism there has been the evolution of several men’s awareness initiatives. Some of these have been confrontational to feminism and some less so. What drove this was the ongoing crisis that our societies face as young men fail to engage with society in the manner of previous generations. We may have expressed this as “Men In Crisis” or “Boys In Crisis”, but the crisis is a collective one.

If we are to address these issues, then men need to explore their own issues and perspectives, and frankly no amount of women have the authority or even real insight to afford them the right to determine how men may perceive these issues or express their reactions. At best women can be observers, and allies.

What none of us should overlook or forget is that our entire social order is predicated on men working and generating wealth for their entire lives, and we cannot afford for them to disengage from this. The impact of men’s apparent failure to maintain their wealth creation capacities are women, children and the elderly as they are the consumers of the wealth that men create.

However, in this post-feminist world men need to synthesize a new response to the demands upon them. The social order that kept the majority of men engaged in previous generations is gone, and is unlikely ever to be recovered.

IMO there is a painful journey to be undertaken in which men explore their experiences and articulate their perceptions. Women are going to hear things that will be at best uncomfortable, but no worse than statements such as “All Men Are Rapists!”.

New feminists cannot absolve themselves of the feminist inheritance, anymore than men can absolve themselves of the past oppression of women.

It seems to me that feminism has long abandoned calm rational logical evidence-based debate and has descended into one successive bout of enraged screaming after another. It occurs to me that this has more to do with trying to drawn out the small voices of ordinary men who are trying to express their experiences. In those fora the only male voice that is heard is the one that equals the vociferousness of those feminists.

It would be better if everyone stopped screaming, kept quiet and started actively listening.

One characteristic, that the young new feminists should perhaps take account of, is the number of older women, who state that they were active feminists, who now are joining MRA’s etc to support mens calls for reform. Almost without exception these women are drawing upon their life experience of close partnership with men, and their observation of their male partner’s experiences. This should pose a question among the young women on the front-line whether what they are being told actually corresponds to the realities that they have yet to encounter. But that is an issue for women….. i.e what is a UK woman to think when her male partner falls ill and he can’t get treatment because gender politics have determined that 85% of all, non-gynecological, health care is directed towards females and that her partners being neither under 16 or over 65 is not a priority case? That woman may think may things as she watches him suffer and then perhaps die, quite necessarily. She undoubtedly will question whether the feminism she has hitherto identified with deserves her support.”

“Feminism has long had a fine line in “Traitor!” accusations for women who “join” the other side. It’s a tough decision to make if you are going to face a barrage of abuse and threats. 

Re: Healthcare – unfortunately it’s tough but decisions about who gets what have to be made. In the ideal world there would be no limit, but in the ideal world so many things would be different and I would be youngish, incredibly handsome and women would hurl themselves at my feet! Only joking, I’d trip over them and hurt myself.

The problem I think is in the MRA / feminist conflict is that from the MRA POV feminists have wielded enormous power in terms of public policy & resources, even though I am certain that most feminists would deny it. In UK here have been a number of credible reports from entities like Royal College of Nursing and Law Society calling for reforms to public policy to afford equality for men. 

From my own research for UK govt men’s Health Forum, it became clear that the women involved in the group really didn’t recognise until it was pointed out to them that society has profoundly different messages for men and women. I analysed a range of very successful TV adverts and then did a gender role swap to highlight how much we are conditioned to accept certain things about men and women. One of the things that surprised the women were the number of ads that had a story line which in a gender reversed mode they immediately cited as intimate partner abuse according to Duluth model. Yet in the original versions they didn’t recognise the actions of the women characters as abusive.

The other problem for the MRA’s is dealing with the conflation of the impact of feminism and the consequences of poor political decisions that have led to the diminution of men’s ability to generate wealth and thus their marginalisation.

  • “A Thought:

Is the man who calls himself a feminist, merely a spruced up version of the Edwardian model of the man who stood aside for weaker women and children, willing to stand on the decks of the Titanic stoically as it slid beneath the waves? All very noble, but to have reached that condition men had to be willing and able, through social conditioning, to suppress the natural instincts. That model of stoicism created men incapable of expressing their emotions, who became distorted people through the endless suppression of self. 

Is there not a convenience in falling in behind feminism with its inherent emphasis upon women’s interests and inherent subordination of men’s interests that let men avoid examining the condition of men in our society and the catastrophe that has befallen many?”

Footnote: In the same blog I came across this post, where the blogger crosses swords with Karen Straughan (aka ‘Girl Writes What’). Again, I would move straight to the comments section where you’ll find some interesting discussion on the issue of the extent to which feminism is based on and/or fosters the hatred of men.

If the central tenet of feminism is equality then what mens/boys causes have feminists championed recently?

Anything?

Someone?

Anyone?

And this despite the fact that:

1. Men are continually being called upon to support and intervene in situations where women are in a situation of real or imagined disadvantage, and

2. There are many areas where the support of women’s groups and individual women would be invaluable, as demonstrated in the following links:

RealSexism.com

http://philosophyofmensissues.blogspot.ca/2014/10/evidence-re-gender-equality-and-feminism.html

http://dontneedfeminism.com/post/70993946998/how-can-you-be-anti-feminist-do-you-not-believe

http://www.avoiceformen.com/the-facts-about-men-and-boys/

http://whitehouseboysmen.org/blog/grading-president-obama-on-his-treatment-of-mens-issues

Sixty More Reasons why Modern Feminism is complete BS: The Facts Sheet

Ok, well while someone thinks of a concrete example of how feminists have lent tangible support to an area where men/boys are disadvantaged, please read the comments contributed in this discussion entitled ‘Do you think feminism is becoming a sexist anti-men movement?’

And then peruse the following sources:

Feminist Lara Witt advises that “on a weekly basis, cisgender men ask me how they can be (better) allies. I don’t usually respond because I’m forever tired of teaching for free. So because I’m super generous I decided to put together this primer on … How men can be slightly less trash” (4 March 2019)

Women’s Network tries to hijack International Men’s Day! (22 September 2017) Video. You couldn’t make this stuff up … An IMD2017 event organised by women’s group behind cover of bogus men’s group, with proceeds to pro-feminist group that ignores male victims of domestic violence.

College Gender Gap: Women Earn More Degrees AND Get Special Treatment (31 May 2017) USA

How To Respond To The Current Feminist Mantra ‘Men’s Problems Today Are Simply The Result Of Traditional Gender Roles’ (3 February 2017) Reddit discussion thread

Why did the BBC erase the 88% of rough sleepers who are men? And what can we do about it? (28 January 2017)

Rough sleeping rises at appalling rate, charity says, as figures show 16% rise (25 January 2017) More men affected? Let’s remove gender from the debate then … or simply ignore men.

Elite Daily columnist: “It’s OK To Hate Men Because of Trump” (23 January 2017)

Feminism’s benefits for men (20 November 2016) Reddit mensrights discussion thread

Can’t we all just get along? (4 November 2016) Australia

Defining, Demonstrating, & Understanding Male Disposability (30 September 2016). See related Reddit discussion thread here, and note in particular the comment by ‘Numbers2357’.

An open letter to the men who say they don’t need feminism, by Julia Lynn Rubin (29 September 2016) USA. Hmm, seems to be a bit of push-back in the reader’s comments Julia. Methinks your case is weak.

Karl McCartney MP: Shrill equality warriors ignore half the human race (16 September 2016)

I wish men were as interested in discussing gender issues as women are (1 September 2016) Choke on the hypocrisy and misandry  inherent in this offering

This feminist offers equality to men in relation to objectification, but only subject to her conditions (17 August 2016) UK. See related Reddit discussion thread here.

“Nice” feminism: How a hate movement uses its grassroots against men, by Hannah Wallen (4 June 2016) Recommended reading

Does the NUS have a man problem? (31 May 2016) UK

Florida N.O.W. The State’s Most Powerful Feminist Lobby Group Lies About Shared Parenting Bill During Opposition (10 April 2016) USA

University Won’t Recognize Men’s Issues Group after Feminists Say it Makes Women Feel Unsafe (29 January 2016) with related reddit discussion thread here

Ryerson’s independent student newspaper the Eyeopener reports the Ryerson Students’ Union (RSU) has “rejected the last appeal” to have the school sanction the Men’s Issues Awareness Society (MIAS).

According to the group’s president, Kevin Arriola, the point of the group is to raise “issues that have never been [talked] about or usually disregarded.”

MIAS has received its major opposition from the school’s Feminist Collective.

In November, Ryerson Feminist Collective organizer Arezoo Najibzadeh called the idea of the group “horrifying.” Najibzadeh said, “I think it’s just horrifying. I don’t see the benefit of having them on campus.”

Men’s Affairs Department redundant as enough laws protecting men, women’s groups say (5 January 2016) Malaysia

““We have a women’s ministry which is to escalate and ensure women’s issues issues are brought to the forefront and to the centre of government policy because at this time there’s clearly serious gender inequality in society…It is almost like nullifying the efforts of the women’s ministry, having a Men’s Affairs Department,” Women’s Aid Organisation (WAO) executive director Sumitra Visvanathan said in a phone interview with Malay Mail Online”

Has anyone else noticed how it’s becoming more common for feminists to claim that they care about men’s issues too, when there is an abundance of evidence that shows otherwise? (18 December 2015) Reddit mensrights discussion thread

This fellow has compiled dozens of links to sources showing how feminists have actively undermined the rights and welfare of men and boys (14 December 2015)

See the articles in this other post, regarding actions taken by York University (UK) in November 2015 to stop discussion of male issues on International Men’s Day

Who’s really being silenced in the gender debate? (4 November 2015)

Feminists Fight To Harm Men NOT To Empower Women (undated) Contains many links to related sources providing examples of feminism working against the interests of men/boys

A Critique of Feminism: A Humanitarian Won’t be Silenced about Sexual and Domestic Violence (24 August 2015)

“I’m just going to say it: Sometimes I feel sorry for men” (July 2015) This is a fairly typical NAFALT ‘look, feminists understand’ piece – the closest thing to  genuine sympathy that any feminist will put her name to. But nowhere will you see any form of acknowledgement that women are partially responsible for the pressure that men face. Instead it is always “people” or “society” that force men to adopt/maintain assigned gender roles. And of course no examples are provided as to where women have actively assisted with any problematic issues affecting men/boys.

Men adrift (30 May 2015) The Economist

Poster at University of Queensland: this room is “a safer space for anyone who is not a cis-man” (25 May 2015)

The denigration of men: Ridiculed, abused, exploited – the triumph of feminism has made today’s men second class citizens, argues a deliciously provocative new book And it’s time the chaps fought back (18 April 2015)

Men more likely than women to be cut off benefits due to “cruel” and “unfair” reasons, survey suggests (6 April 2015) U.K.

Are female MPs the most sexist against men? Very much so, especially if they’re Lib Dems (24 March 2015) Shared parenting

Paternity Fraud Begs the Question: Who’s Your Daddy? (25 February 2015)

Official thinking on involving men in “gender equality” still getting it wrong (9 March 2015)

NOW panics and dumps articles after AVFM exposes hypocrisy (8 March 2015)

Leslie Loftis: Mothers speak up for their sons – and enrage hardline feminists (5 March 2015)

Response to opinion editor’s idea of feminism (6 December 2014)

The right kind of equality (21 October 2014)

U.S Open gilds the lily of anti-male discrimination (8 September 2014)

Barnardo’s: Sexual exploitation of boys overlooked (26 August 2014)

Feminists oppose alimony law reform in Florida (reddit discussion thread, August 2014)

The Mask You Live In: One Time Pays For Naught (13 December 2013)

Two dozen women urge Scott to veto alimony bill (26 April 2013) and here

Comprehensive listing of where and when the feminist lobby have fought against reforms that would promote equality for men/boys (10 September 2014)

http://www.christianpost.com/news/obama-blocks-white-house-council-on-boys-and-men-113897/

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/answering-a-schoolgirls-questions/

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like/

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/gentleman_scholar/2014/03/advice_for_men_about_collar_stays_cohabitation_and_the_men_s_rights_movement.2.html

http://breakingtheglasses.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/yes-all-feminists-are-like-that.html#.U0oDOlWSySo

http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/suicide-the-problem-they-claim-to-be-working-on-but-arent/ consent

feminist

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cryandasksupport

Are feminists truly committed to equality for all women and girls?

In another post I question the extent to which feminists are concerned about equality for men and boys (they’re not). In this post I wanted to focus instead on women and girls.

Every day we hear another feminist scorning those who query some or all aspects of feminist ideology because, you know, feminism is just about achieving equality … BUT

How about equality for American women of colour? Poor women in western countries? Transgender women? Sex-workers? Other women who hold views or choose lifestyles at odds with feminist ideology – for example ‘pro-life’ women or conservatives?

How about equality for women in developing countries?

How much do the feminist hierarchy care about fighting for recognition, freedom and equality for these women?

In some cases privileged white western feminists don’t even care about the rights of other white western women. This occurs, for example, in the case of conservative and/or anti-feminist women (internalised misogyny=they deserve it), or where defending women’s rights would undermine the feminist narrative.

For example, you could almost hear the rapid intake of feminists breath when Olympic volleyball star Kerri Walsh Jennings stated that “I was born to have babies“.

To take another example, consider the silence of feminists in relation to the scandal at Rotherham in the U.K or the sexual assault of women in Europe by Muslim economic refugees as discussed in this blog post.

Take a look at:

Rich women who promote feminism are gigantic hypocrites (8 October 2017)

Rita Panahi: Sisterhood ignores sexism and vile abuse aimed at conservatives (11 June 2017)

The ‘Women’s March on Washington’ Shows Why Feminism Is Dying (18 January 2017) USA

Liberal Party staffer and bikini model Tamara Candy reveals she has been hired by MP George Christensen – purely for her academic qualifications (4 March 2016) A similar article appeared in pro-feminist news.com.au. Pretty-shaming (or even subtle slut-shaming) is apparently quite OK when the target is on the conservative side of politics and admits she is not a feminist.

The new oppressed class – top tier female managers. Feminism just doing it’s bit for elite, wealthy white women (3 March 2016) Australia. Reddit discussion thread with linked article.

Don’t be that woman (on women’s involvement in sex trafficking) 21 October 2015

Muslim Woman Destroys Feminism (22 September 2015) Video

The single most humiliating moment in Jessica Valenti’s public life (26 August 2015) Video

Feminists don’t challenge radical Islam because real misogynists are terrifying (9 June 2015)

As ISIS brutalizes women, a pathetic feminist silence (7 June 2015)

White Women, Please Don’t Expect Me to Wipe Away Your Tears (15 December 2014)

Laverne Cox gets naked, Exposes radical feminist exclusionism (April 2015)

Proof positive that feminists don’t care about women (27 March 2015)

This is what I mean when I say “White Feminism” (10 January 2014)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adele-tomlin/white-feminism_b_4477351.html

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2014/01/15/white-feminism-nearing-endpoint/

http://www.dailydot.com/society/helen-lewis-intersectionality-bullying-feminism/

Feminism, American style (23 June 2014)

Feminists ignore the real root of misogyny (1 December 2014)

The current dominant variant of feminism is increasingly being recognised as being largely controlled by, and acting in the interests of, well-educated white women. This ruling feminist clique demonstrates little more than a token appreciation of (or interest in) the challenges faced by poorer women and/or women outside the western bloc. They are by no means shy, however, to speak on their behalf.

See Alain Soral, French writer and subversive activist, on feminism (video)

And interestingly, the privileged uber-feminists are just as catty and defensive when called out by their less-advantaged sisters as they are when men try to join the feminist conversation soliloquy.

In this feminist blog post the author states “I saw the same kinds of things happening – white feminists reacting defensively to criticism, women of color being silenced or ignored or attacked.”

She and others like her are basically saying that women of color have unique life experiences, and can offer a different and valuable perspective. Theirs is a perspective which is foreign to white feminists, who should listen to them and understand their issues rather than putting words in their mouth and/or telling them what they need. No doubt very laudable advice. Why, it might even be applied to how white feminists interact with men. But oh no, silly me! For not only are our genes different, but so too are our chromosomes.

Thus when it comes to men (and presumably also men of colour) the author shares this insight:

If the issues concerned a bunch of women and men in arguing over whether something were sexist or not, there would be no question of who was right. When you have a group of men ganging up and claiming that the women in the room are being oversensitive and irrational and seeing sexism where there is none (we have all been in this room before, I think), we all know the men are full of bullshit. It is an egregious show of male privilege.

Well I’m seeing sexism too now, so does this mean I’m NOT full of bullshit?

When I read the author’s “About” page, I couldn’t help thinking that we could substitute men for women of colour. Let’s try it now:

“I believe in the struggle for equality of all people regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. This struggle means recognizing and fighting discrimination wherever it exists.”

This is especially true when it is within our own ranks. So let’s stop burying our heads in denial. Let’s recognize the hypocrisy of claiming to fight oppression while simultaneously acting as oppressors ourselves. Listen to the words of your sisters brothers who do not have your white privilege ‘Y’ chromosome. Do not get angry and blame them for your faults. Instead, listen.

Because it’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay to be wrong sometimes — everyone is. But it’s not okay to deny those mistakes, to refuse to change or learn from them, to insist we are perfect the way we are. In doing so, we keep the same old systems of hierarchy and oppression in place.

And isn’t that just what we criticize patriarchy for doing?”

How about poor women in Mauritius being paid 62p an hour to make ‘This is what a feminist looks like’ T-shirts that sold in the UK for 45 British pounds? And then the feminist group that marketed the T-shirts tried to bury the issue. For an January 2015 update on that issue read this article.

And here is the story about the life of an Australian Aboriginal woman, Bess Price. See what she thinks about the efforts of left-leaning white feminist women to help achieve equality for her people.

What about the Rotherham child abuse scandal in the UK? Did the global feminist movement swing into action to address this shocking example of ‘rape culture’? Hmm. not exactly, no. Perhaps if the abusers were white lacrosse players with plummy accents there might have been a bit more to get excited about.

And how about the negative & patronising feminist view of women who elect not to join (or remain in) the paid workforce … much has been written on that subject. Here’s a recent example:

‘The toxic legacy of Superwoman: Career women insist feminism means ALL women having jobs, but could that belief blight the lives of mothers – and their children?‘ (5 February 2015)

Feminism has been hijacked by white middle-class women (13 February 2015)

Finally, and I’m not sure that this is the most appropriate place to post this link, but in this Youtube video a woman of colour compares the use of the term ‘misogynist’ nowadays with the historical use of the term ‘nigger’.3rdworldwomen

returnofkings

To feminists ‘equality’ is just a marketing ploy to get what they really want

The contemporary version of feminism is not a movement devoted to achieving equality – as its proponents so vociferously claim. There are many areas where feminists have achieved policy and legislative changes that have swung the balance of power very much in favour of women, and yet they still argue for further reforms on the basis of their ongoing alleged victimhood.

As time permits I plan to identify and precis a selection of articles on this topic.

To start the ball rolling, however, take a look at these three great articles  by well-known anti-feminist writer, Janet Bloomfield:

The first article is entitled ‘Feminists care about equality? Bullshit. They stand directly in the way of it

The second article is entitled ‘Five rights feminism delivered for women, but doesn’t want to share with anyone else‘. It’s language and tone might be a bit intense for some readers, but it does provide an interesting and valid perspective on the gender debate. Have a browse amongst some of Janet’s other great articles while you are visiting her site.

The third article is entitled ‘If Feminism Is About Equality, Why Do Feminists Oppose Equality?‘ (7 March 2015)

See also:

Start a conversation (2016) A set of publications produced by the respect.gov.au initiative. The one-sided nature of the respective rights/obligations of boys and girls set out in these documents almost defies belief. Essentially boys are obligated to respect women/girls, whilst women/girls are obligated to demand respect. Gender equality? Nothing close. This package is nothing more than a taxpayer-funded feminist wet dream.

Collectivists: Seen one, You Seen ‘Em All (28 July 2016)

Do women really want equality? by Nikita Coulombe (12 May 2016) USA

If Feminism Is About Equality, Why Do Feminists Oppose Equality? (6 March 2016) USA

It’s the £30bn cut you’ve never heard of. And women are bearing the brunt (26 February 2016) Yes, another one of those ‘equality only when it benefits women’-type of articles. This one about making the retirement age the same for men and women (although they don’t actually mention that … funny thing)

Do Women Want Equality – The Fiamengo File Episode 12 (29 October 2015) Video

Understanding the torchbearers of Gender Equality (21 August 2015)

“If they want true gender equality then,

1.    Do not have any gender biased scheme, be it education, occupation or any other sphere of life.

2.    There should be absolutely no gender based reservation and all existing forms of gender based reservation must also be abolished.

3.    Punishment for crime cannot be gender based. Principles of true, actual and absolute gender equality require that equal punishment be awarded to both men and women for the same offenses committed.

4.    Equal participation of women in all risky, dangerous and menial jobs like combat, mining, plumbing, painting, construction of building etc.

5.    No glorification of first woman combat trainer, first woman bus driver, first woman train driver etc.

6.    Abolish the concept of alimony and maintenance for all women who are educated 10+. There are enough jobs available for all people who have studied more than class 10. If men can find one, so can women.

7.    No special preference to the feminine gender in any form or respect. If men can stand in a line, so can women. If men can stand and travel, so can women.

8.    No special budget should be allowed for women else allocate equal budget specifically for men.

9.    Abolish all women specific bodies like National Commission for Women, Women and Child Development Ministry etc. or form similar bodies for men.

10.  No automatic license to commit violence on the basis of gender …”

A Permanent Gender War? by Angry Harry (undated)

Why Feminism Is NOT ‘The Fight for Equal Rights’ (10 November 2014)

Anti-Feminist Lawyer Plans Lawsuit to Force Women to Register for Draft (24 September 2014)

35 Practical Steps Men Can Take To Support Feminism (14 June 2014) These sorts of articles are fairly commonplace … list of things that men should do to please feminists. Of course if feminists were really into equality then they would write articles about corresponding commitments that women should make to men. But of course they don’t. Ever

Gloria Steinem says feminism is not about equality

What is a feminist, anyway? (14 May 2014) Read this, it’s quite good

Feminism v. Equality by Diana Davison (7 April 2014)

http://anti-feminism-pro-equality.tumblr.com/badwomen

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/05/05/a-feminist-admits-that-feminism-isnt-about-equality/

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-corruption/feminism-v-equality/

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/the-feminists-great-equality-lie/ (5 Nov 2013)

Feminism is no longer a dirty word‘ (CNN, 25 March 2014) Wow, more than 2,000 readers comments – and so few of them supportive of feminism

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/womens-legal-education-action-fund-the-first-rule-of-leaf-is-dont-talk-about-leaf/ by John Hembling (18 April 2014)

equal_rights

Related posts within this blog

About feminism & feminist antipathy towards the rights of men
On the censorship of non-feminist perspectives and opinions
Not all feminists are like that (NAFALT)
If the central tenet of feminism is equality then what mens/boys causes have feminists championed recently?
Are feminists committed to equality for all women?