(Regarding the use of the term “overwhelming majority“)
Whilst Tim Watt’s heart is probably in the right place, a combination of immaturity, male self-loathing, and a compulsion to play the role of ‘white knight‘, seems to have blinded him to reality. And that reality is that many women are abusive, that many men are victims of abuse, and that acknowledging this in no way diminishes ones ability to recognise and empathise the suffering experienced by female victims.
So, OK, how many men are we talking about here? The answer depends on a number of variables, particularly the issue of how domestic violence is defined. As a consequence the ratio of male to female victims has been found to range all the way from one in four up to three in four. Even if one only accepted the lower end of that range, that still amounts to a considerable number of male victims – and certainly far too many to simply disregard as a statistical aberration.
Detailed data and analysis in relation to domestic violence can be found in this other blog post, but I’ll provide a few snippets of information below.
One Australian survey found for example that “the rate of men reporting current partner violence almost doubled (a rise of 175%) since 2005 (an estimated 119,600 men reported such violence in 2012)” (Source)
A survey in the U.S.A reported that “We analyzed data on young US adults aged 18 to 28 years from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, which contained information about partner violence and injury reported by 11,370 respondents on 18,761 heterosexual relationships. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.”
A survey in the U.K found that:
(And, for comparision purposes, click here to see the Canadian results for victimisation from violence generally)
**Male victims of domestic violence who are seeking assistance, and who live in Australia, should read this information**
On the level of support provided for male victims of domestic violence
“On the societal level, women’s violence against men has a trivial effect on men compared to the devastating effect of men’s violence against women” (Source).
“Shelley Serdahely, executive director of Men Stopping Violence, in Decatur, Ga., questions the validity of studies showing women are more violent. “Women might be more likely to get frustrated because men are not taught how to be active listeners and women feel like they are not being heard,” she said. “Often women are more emotional because the relationship matters a lot to them, and while that may come out in a push or a shove or a grab, all of which are considered dating violence, it doesn’t have the effect of intimidating the man.”” (Source)
This is the mistaken belief of many within the pro-feminist domestic violence sector whose philosophical approach is proscribed by the so-called Duluth Model. An attitude that underpins the chronic under-resourcing of services for male victims of DV.
“There are thousands of shelters in the U.S. for women and even thousands for our pets, but not a single independent shelter just for men (and no federal funding). The Domestic Abuse Project of Delaware Country, PA (where I grew up) was the first to campaign to assist victims of both genders but that only meant they were one of the first to allow mothers with teenage boys to find assistance as most still see 12-18 year old teenage boys as members of the “almost clinically and psychologically dead” (as per Dr. Helen Caldicott) “foreign male element.” Many states claim to help men somehow but not a one can provide any data on the number served.
England built their first men’s shelter in 2003 after 423 shelters (now 7,500) had been built for women (forced to open in secret due to fear of violent protests). All public funding for men’s shelters in England (like most countries), however, have since been pulled as men are now told to go to women’s shelters (a 2008 House of Commons report claimed there was no need or desire for male-only shelters with the issue only being distorted by a deep-seated contempt for women). Battered men around the world are routinely told to go to homeless shelters (what, no possibility of ingrained contempt for men?).
A few countries like Holland, Serbia, and Switzerland have set aside funds for battered men shelters but they are scarce and underfunded compared to homes for battered women. Most men are still waiting for their country’s first governmentally supported refuge. We must identify the violence done by women against men, see it as a serious social problem, and face the reality domestic violence is more likely mutual or female-initiated and so our public service announcements and federal service funding urgently need to be de-gendered.
The 1975 National Family Violence Survey (Behind Closed Doors: Violence in the American Family, Straus et al.) found men and women equally abusive. The myth of subjugated women (Gelles, 1988; Kaufman, 1990; Straus, 1991) has but “crippled prevention and treatment efforts” (Scott, 2006). In 2008, Drs. Douglas and Hines conducted the first-ever national survey of men who sought help for heterosexual partner violence. It regrettably showed a large proportion of men who seek help from American domestic violence agencies (49.9%) or hotlines (63.9%) are specifically told, “We only help women.”
Many men seeking assistance from DV agencies (40.2%) or DV hotlines (32.2%) end up accused of being the batterer, a third of male victims who call the police end up arrested, and less than a third of those who consult with any mental health professionals are offered details on how to get help from a DV program. The investigation concluded the worst places for men to get help were “those that are the core of the DV service system: DV agencies, DV hotlines, and the police. The qualitative accounts in our research tell a story of male help seekers who are often doubted, ridiculed, and given false information.”
“I vividly remember accidentally walking into a “safe room” for victims of domestic violence at the court house and being pounced on by a bunch of quite militant women and told in no uncertain terms to get out of the room, for no other reason than I was male and they assumed I was the guilty party. It didn’t even occur to them that I , a male, was the VICTIM of domestic violence. The irony is that my extremely violent wife would have been welcomed with open arms in the same situation and been showered with empathy by them.” (Source: Readers comment)
“I’m not suggesting that violence against men doesn’t happen, of course it does, but it is actually really rare.” Karen Willis, Executive Officer for Rape and Domestic Violence Services in Australia (Source)
Men who are abused by women are ignored (9 July 2024) Sweden
‘We start the day with 60 people waiting’: the lawyers helping the ‘never-ending list’ of Australia’s DV victims (21 May 2024) Sixty women, they mean
Male victims of sexual abuse and domestic violence: A steadily increasing phenomenon (January 2021) An Italian university study
Prioritising women’s safety in Australian perpetrator interventions: The purpose and practices of partner contact (April 2020). An example of the work of ANROWS, brimful of gender bias but substantive enough to the naïve, or biased, eye to have a significant influence on the manner in which DV-related funds are dispensed.
Why do male victims of violence seem to disappear like magic? (27 October 2022)
1IN3’s submission in response to the discussion paper: Implementation considerations should coercive control be criminalised in South Australia (12 April 2022) The actual submission lists a number of ways that male victims are routinely discriminated against and denied support services.
Male domestic abuse: Lack of refuges ‘inexplicable’, charity says (31 March 2022)
Men’s Aid chief says male victims of domestic abuse are ‘forgotten’ due to lack of support (1 March 2022)
What Happens When Someone Calls The National Domestic Abuse Helpline? [Short Answer] (27 November 2021) UK
An attendee at today’s Mankind Initiative conference writes … (17 November 2021) UK
Understanding the Profile and Needs of Abused Men: Exploring Call Data From a Male Domestic Violence Charity in the United Kingdom (28 June 2021)
Live chat on how police hate enforcing unfair feminist laws (thinkspot.com) (20 July 2021) Bettina Arndt interviews a former police officer
Homicide research reveals society ‘blind’ to male victims of domestic violence | University of Cumbria (30 June 2021) UK
Men with nowhere to turn (1 September 2020) Australia
Male victims are being left off the domestic violence conversation (20 August 2020) Canada
A question for the(ir) ABC and Scott Morrison (8 May 2020)
Who is best placed to help male victims of domestic violence? (21 December 2019)
The hidden male victims of domestic violence, by Augusto Zimmermann (5 December 2019)
Gamma Bias: Cognitive distortion in thinking about gender (17 July 2019)
Male domestic abuse victims ‘suffering in silence’ (1 March 2019) UK
OPINION: The Violence Against Women Act Is An Insult To Fairness (7 December 2018) USA
Who reports domestic violence to police? A review of the evidence (25 September 2018) It’s not newsworthy that men are less likely to report being victims of domestic violence
Domestic Violence programs discriminate against male victims, by SAVE (undated)
‘Marginalizing the Battered Male‘, by Todd A. Migliaccio, University of California (undated)
Feminist-run domestic violence helplines guilty of anti-male sex discrimination for assuming male victims were perpetrators (27 November 2017)
Female victims of violent crime ‘should receive more compensation’ (10 August 2017)
Greedy feminists clutching DV funding are ruining men’s lives (19 June 2017)
Feminists against men’s domestic violence shelters (24 May 2017) Video
John Robson: Why are there almost no shelters for male victims? And why is asking that question so controversial? (23 May 2017)
Book review: ‘The Silent Man’ (2 May 2017)
Male victims of domestic violence are being failed by the system (13 March 2017) UK
Do Gay and Lesbian Victims of Domestic Abuse Get Less Attention from Cops? (8 March 2017)
“According to study author Brenda Russell, a psychology professor at Pennsylvania State University, the officers surveyed rated male perpetrators of IPV as more “dangerous” to others than any other gender or sexual orientation.
In contrast, male victims of female perpetrators were considered “responsible” in some way for the abuse they suffered. Victims of lesbian and gay male violence were also considered more culpable and more likely to demonstrate thoughts and behaviors indicative of mental illness.”
A submission by the One in Three organisation to the Victorian Victims Support Agency (2 March 2017) Well-worth a read!
Why some Survivors are more equal than others. And the case for inclusion & integration (15 February 2017)
The Duluth model is working as designed; you won’t smart mouth her again (3 February 2017)
Male victims of sexual violence are being ignored by the government, by Ally Fogg (21 December 2016) UK
One man’s grassroots insight into the Duluth Model domestic violence perpetrator programme (15 December 2016)
Women won’t be equal until they’re punished for beating up men (13 December 2016) UK
From the Home Office to the Independent: crying out for gender-inclusive policy, by Ally Fogg (9 December 2016) UK
The fox now guards the hen house ~ Bettina Arndt (17 November 2016) Concerns a negative aspect of the NSW Government’s recent allocation to support male victims of domestic violence.
Denied and dismissed (18 November 2016) Canada
Until we treat male and female domestic abuse victims the same, we’ll never be rid of it (8 November 2016)
Male family violence victims on safer pathway (7 November 2016) A positive development from the NSW Government in Australia
Feminist group, the ‘Women’s Liberation Front’, lobbies against allowing trans-women into DV shelters … men obviously out of the question! (1 October 2016) Australia. Reddit discussion thread and linked article
Domestic Violence Is Far More Than A Simple Story Of Good And Bad (27 September 2016) It’s very disappointing that we are still seeing the publication of biased and one-sided articles such as this, which undermine any nascent recognition of, and support for, victims of female abusers.
BBC & Notts Police Chief publicise non-existent “hate crimes” against women whilst ignoring fatal domestic violence against men (22 September 2016) UK
Building stronger and safer communities for everyone (9 September 2016) Australia. But then in first paragraph I note the funds are to be used to “help reduce violence against women and their children”, so presumably men are included in the “everyone“.
The shame of being a male victim of domestic violence (3 September 2016) Australia
Domestic violence against men (August 2016) A video by female MRA ‘shoeonhead’
The Denial of Female Domestic Violence (Dr Augusto Zimmermann, Quadrant, July-August 2016)
According to figures quoted in this video featuring journalist Martin Daubney, only 10% of male victims of domestic violence in Britain report incidents to the police (versus 26% of women)
Vital research into male domestic violence under threat – because victims won’t come forward (15 June 2016) UK “Currently only 10% of male victims will tell the police, only 23% will tell a person in an official position, and only 11% will tell a health professional”
The Other Side of the Coin: Breaking the Stigma of Male Domestic Violence Victims (20 May 2016) Canada
Bob McCoskrie: Family violence is still not just a male problem (13 May 2016) New Zealand. Reddit discussion thread here
The Hen-pecked husband (30 April 2016) Spain, and then further on this theme:
Husband shares the hilarious (and VERY long) list of reasons why he’s had to apologize to his wife: ‘My steak knife touched the plate for one second’ (19 October 2022)
Submission by Bethlehem House (#43) to the 2016 federal Senate Inquiry into Domestic Violence and Gender Inequality (4 April 2016) Australia
Why female violence against men is society’s last great taboo, by Martin Daubney (15 March 2016) UK
Male domestic violence victims can’t get help even when their lives are at risk, says brother of lawyer killed by his wife (13 March 2016) UK
‘I was covered in blood from her punches’: Male victims of domestic abuse speak out (28 February 2016) Scotland
Male victims still overlooked (28 February 2016) Australia
Reddit AskMen discussion thread seeking men’s personal experiences of DV helplines (26 February 2016)
Male victims of domestic violence: A hidden battle (18 February 2016)
What percentage of male victims of domestic violence are arrested for Domestic Violence after calling the police? (16 February 2016) Reddit mensrights discussion thread
The blind spot in our domestic violence crisis (10 February 2016) This article written by a CEO of a Women’s Shelter – no prizes for guessing her sole focus. I’ve included it here though for the readers comments.
Details concerning an Australian campaign to lobby for changes to the current discriminatory manner in which male victims of domestic violence are dealt with (January 2016)
Baird’s Police website doesn’t provide a single support resource for male victims of domestic abuse – she’s Twitter blocking such organisations instead (7 January 2016)
How feminists and a Police Commissioner’s Office conspired against male victims of domestic violence on Twitter (5 January 2016) UK
Northumbria Police domestic abuse posters ‘should be torn down’ (31 December 2015) UK
The Empathy Gap in Domestic Violence, by Krista Milburn (2 December 2015)
How can we stand by and do nothing for male victims of domestic violence? (26 October 2015)
Mythology Is Killing The Solutions To Domestic Violence, by Jasmin Newman (October 2015) Australia
A Plea to Women (28 November 2015)
Why will no one fund male domestic abuse charities? (26 November 2015)
Story of domestic violence against men is hidden, complicated and disputed (24 November 2015) Australia
Silent Victims, by Bettina Arndt (14 November 2015) Australia
‘Domestic violence debate dominated by women’s perspectives’ (11 November 2015) NZ
Men exposed to domestic violence more worried about not being believed (6 November 2015)
Ireland does not have official statistics on male domestic violence (1 November 2015)
Why I’m backing QLD Labor Premier on male victims | Talk About Men (25 October 2015)
Domestic abuse charity for male victims could close (23 October 2015) UK
Annastacia Palaszczuk warned: don’t put domestic violence against men above women (19 October 2015) Australia
It’s Time to Acknowledge Male Victims of Domestic Violence (16 October 2015) USA
Why we don’t hear about male victims of domestic violence (13 September 2015) Whilst any coverage of male DV victims is a positive, this article is typical in the manner in which it downplays/minimises every aspect of male victimisation.
Handcuffed man, 48, dies in lobby of Texas jail after officer ‘put knee to his throat’ when he ran in saying his wife was trying to kill him (2 August 2015)
Pets of family violence victims to be offered protection in Victoria (5 July 2015) No men’s DV shelters but support for pets, hmm.
Astute Dr Elizabeth Celi UNRAVELS Truth about Men in todays Feminist world (11 June 2015) Video. Australia
Willow Domestic Violence Center: Beginning the path to healthy change (12 June 2015)
Time for fresh thinking on domestic violence (4 June 2015)
Two sides of the same coin: Domestic violence affects everyone (31 May 2015) Canada
Australian feminist journo, Sarah Farnsworth, agrees we should provide DV shelter accommodation for men too … “violent men” … so the police can track them down more easily! No mention that males can be victims (29 May 2015)
New voices: The ‘minority’ man? (May 2015) Journal of the British Psychological Society – Recommended reading
“Forty years of feminist campaigning and the influence of gender stereotypes have had a major impact on how society views IPV.” “Gender biases are highly influential in affecting people’s perceptions of the severity of IPV.”
Helpline for male victims of domestic violence in India receives more calls for help in its first year of operation than the government’s own helpline (which only caters for female DV victims) May 2015
Man Begins Hunger Strike at Queen’s Park Until Gov Promises to Open Shelter for Abused Men (11 May 2015) Canada
This April 2015 article by Attila Vinczer provides some interesting historical perspective on how society views/ignores male victims of domestic violence.
The ABC allows feminists to use Q&A as a bully pulpit (2 March 2015)
Here in Australia, to get an idea of the level of resistance to acknowledging male victims of DV, one only has to observe the response from feminists on the few occasions when some agency or individual (e.g. Tanveer Ahmed) publicly discusses male victims. The most recent example was when the NSW Police service featured male DV victims in a campaign in early 2015:
NSW police have started a controversial discussion about domestic violence on their Facebook page (20 January 2015)
NSW Police fail victims of domestic violence with flippant social media post (20 January 2015) Australian feminist journalist attacks NSW Police for recognising male victims of domestic violence. Somebody fetch me a sick bucket
Police Facebook post stirs debate on controversial issue (19 January 2015)
When it comes to Domestic Violence, she says she wants equality – however evidence to suggests otherwise (6 February 2015)
Two posts from the Facebook page of ‘Exposing Feminism’ concerning accommodation provided by ‘DV Connect’ for male & female DV victims in Brisbane – here and here (8 July 2014)
Abused boys and men: feminism’s acceptable losses (4 July 2013)
Malestrom pt 2: When anger is justified, by Ally Fogg (23 June 2013) Be sure to study the many thoughtful readers comments here
Male Victims of Domestic Violence (4 March 2011) USA
My wife hugged me to say sorry for beating me up… then knifed me in the back (13 January 2011) UK
Mom’s Abuse Makes Man Afraid Of Women (2 November 2010)
If you are really against Domestic Violence (13 May 2010) USA
General references pertaining to male victims of domestic violence:
Male domestic violence survivors say they feel the Depp-Heard trial is a turning point (25 May 2022)
Why better understanding male victims of domestic abuse is vital (10 November 2020)
Coercive control is a form of intimate terrorism and must be criminalised (6 October 2020) Australia. ‘Coercive control’ is the current buzz-word within the Domestic Violence Industry. This Guardian article is typical in that it infers that all perpetrators are male.
Figures reveal shocking extent of domestic abuse against men (22 June 2020)
Research on male victims of domestic abuse, by Mankind Initiative (April 2020)
Yet another study finds equal levels of abuse by men and women (2 February 2020) Australia
Domestic abuse by women triples in a decade with female attackers carrying out almost a third of assaults (26 January 2020)
Domestic violence against men: No laughing matter (19 November 2019)
Domestic abuse: The latest lie (19 July 2019) UK. This article addresses, amongst other things, the feminist myth that most men who suffer domestic violence are the victims of other men.
Recent Australian intimate partner violence research finds high rates of male victimisation (30 May 2019)
Brutal post details the harmful ways in which teenage girls abuse boyfriends (6 June 2017) UK
Charity reveals 128,767 men told police they were a domestic abuse victim during 2015 (17 December 2016) UK
More than 650,000 men said they suffered domestic abuse over the last year as gap between number of male and female victims falls to record low (8 December 2016) UK. See related Reddit discussion thread here.
Domestic abuse myth busting #2: So few heterosexual male victims report abuse because of shame (26 September 2016)
Domestic violence against men soars to record levels as number of cases treble in past decade (17 September 2016) UK
Men are also victims of domestic abuse, by Corrine Barraclough (31 August 2016)
Domestic violence not just a female problem: Documents reveal more than 10,000 males across NSW affected (12 August 2016) Finally some support for male victims (NSW, Australia)
AIFS “Experiences of Separated Parents Study” reveals high levels of domestic violence against men (29 June 2016) Australia
Men also suffer from domestic abuse (23 June 2016) Canada
Rise in men taking out domestic violence orders against mothers and partners at Southport Court (18 May 2016) Australia
How male victims of domestic abuse often end up getting arrested themselves (16 January 2016)
Domestic Violence Is Gender Blind, Unlike the Activists (30 November 2015) South America
‘Victims and Witnesses of Crime Court Support’ is an Australian organisation that supports male victims of violence (incl. domestic violence) in the court system
What happens when you fall in love with someone who’s aggressive? (18 November 2015)
“Across almost every study, gender came out as a significant factor: the male participants were more tolerant and more willing to stay in relationships that involved aggressions. This was unexpected, but may reflect a reluctance within men to define their partners as aggressors and themselves in some sense as victims, as seen in low reporting rates of domestic violence against men.”
The Number of Male Domestic Abuse Victims Is Shockingly High — So Why Don’t We Hear About Them? (26 October 2015) Almost 800 readers comments
Male Domestic Abuse Victims | World Have Your Say (BBC World Service) (8 October 2015)
What I’ve learnt from speaking to male victims of domestic abuse every day (25 March 2015)
YWCA says more men report being victims of domestic violence (24 March 2015) and related reddit mensrights discussion thread
An open letter to Rosie Batty, by Mark Dent (15 March 2015)
Time, Human Rights Watch ignore male victims of violence, report that female victims are ignored (13 March 2015)
Only women get help for spousal violence, while men are ignored – Barbara Kay (11 March 2015)
Interview with Canadian Association for Equality about getting recognition for male DV victims (10 March 2015) You Tube video also discussed in this article (features a number of good readers comments)
How funding changes in NSW locked women out of domestic violence refuges (9 March 2015) Male victims of domestic violence don’t even register as a blip on the radar screen of the feminists orchestrating the DV ‘debate’.
Men’s issues group unveils billboard in reaction to Ontario’s ‘sexist’ campaign against domestic violence (9 March 2015)
Domestic violence against men ignored (2 March 2015) Canada
The Myth Women Are The Only Victims Of Domestic Violence (3 February 2015)
Ray J Allegedly Beaten By His Girlfriend – Are Men Finally Legit Victims of Domestic Violence? (17 February 2015)
Stop violence against who? by John The Other (6 November 2011) Youtube video
Men’s ignored suffering from serious domestic violence injuries (undated)
Why is there such resistance to recognising male victims of domestic violence? (12 November 2014)
Why I’m fighting a charity that support female domestic violence victims (14 November 2014)
October 2014 reddit/r/todayilearned discussion thread on the lack of recognition and support given to male victims of domestic violence
I’m going to stab you’: Calls for more support for male domestic violence victims (22 October 2014)
Central Victorian man calls for more support for male victims of DV
Hospital’s undercover legal service latest check on violence against women (28 September 2014) But no similar service for men … why not? I mean other than stereotypes about men not needing help, etc.
Blog post on the lack of recognition of male victims of DV (18 October 2014)
Can male victims of domestic violence get the help they need? Conference presentation by Denise Hines, Clarke University, USA
The only DV services for men in Berlin are for perpetrators (23 September 2014) DV agency brochure plus linked reddit/mensrights discussion thread
Men are victims of domestic violence too by Bill O’Chee (3 September 2014)
Domestic violence against men hits record high (4 November 2013) Ireland
Abused boys and men: feminism’s acceptable losses, by Hannah Wallen (4 July 2013)
600 shelters for abused women in Canada but zero for men. Only 8% have ever admitted a man – usually elderly and/or disabled
Domestic violence refuge provision at crisis point, warn charities (4 August 2014) A good response to this article was then penned by Ally Fogg entitled ‘Throwing domestic violence victims to the wolves‘ – well worth reading. Despite there being very few beds available for men, when cutbacks are made (or accountability enforced) then men are blamed. The same thing is happening now in Australia. Women demand empathy from men (regarding DV) but when men seek support they are shamed.
The situation for women’s refuges is desperate – but we need to start admitting men, too (6 August 2014)
In Australia millions of dollars more to be poured into protecting “women and their children”, but no mention whatsoever of female perpetrators or male victims (July 2014) And a subsequent lobbying campaign by Men’s Rights Sydney
Male Domestic Violence victims need more support, by Mark White (30 December 2013)
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/why-no-refuges-male-victims-domestic-violence-075147102.html#hshyx6n (6 July 2014)
Are women nagging husbands to death? Research shows henpecked men twice as likely to die young (9 May 2014)
Ground-breaking study shows need for unbiased domestic violence services (15 March 2007)
Men Shouldn’t Be Overlooked as Victims of Partner Violence (3 August 2007)
Gender bias in domestic violence treatment (31 August 2005)
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/236g8o/canada_does_not_have_a_single_shelter_for_male/ and http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/23e3hf/so_ive_been_calling_feminist_groups_in_canada/
Inquiring Bryony House About DV Shelters in Nova Scotia (30 March 2014)
It’s time to challenge the myth of the male victim (24 March 2014)
Women’s Shelters and Domestic Violence Services Save the Lives of Men, by Katherine van Wormer (11 December 2010) This feminist author puts forward the argument that funding more women’s shelters is actually a bonus for men, because otherwise the women who couldn’t escape their homes would have to kill their partners
1994 TV debate between feminist and man running refuges for male victims of domestic violence (video)
This blog contains many other posts that discuss the issue of domestic violence – for example:
On violence carried out by women and girls
Please click here to see a list of other relevant posts.
Posts addressing other related issues can be accessed by clicking on the relevant topic ‘tags’ at the base of this page
I am a victim, along with my children. All evidence was watered down, to say we had different personalities, by so called experts. Every relationship my ex wife was in was violent. She admitted being violent in relationships. Once again all the evidence was watered down. This poor woman can not be helped, as she would change her personality all the time. When told to seek treatment she would just walk away. Men and women should be made more aware that there is no place for dv.