Who pays on dates?

There have been, and there continues to be, many articles written about the topic of who should meet the costs of dating or courtship. Most articles appear to be written by women, with most mocking (to varying degrees) the alleged or implied cheapness of men who dare object to paying the entire cost of a night out. Or as is more often the case, a series of nights out.

Whilst hardly a ‘life or death’ matter, this topic has special significance in that it illustrates how some traditional gender roles are aggressively retained whilst others are forcefully discarded. With the former mostly appearing to benefit women.

A number of justifications are put forward as to why one partner should pay for the other. Perhaps the most common is the suggestion that the person who makes the approach, and issues the invitation, should pay for the date. That is clearly very convenient for women given that 99 times out of 100, they are the ones being invited out.

After that the rationalisations as to why men should pay get even more ‘out there’, especially when it is a feminist at the keyboard. Consider for example, ‘I Let Him Pay for Dinner – Am I a Bad Feminist?‘ by Suzanna Weiss (5 July 2016)

My own position is that if the costs of dates aren’t shared, or if partners aren’t treated on alternate dates, then it is free-loading no matter how you dress it up. And if the first date is such that you know there won’t be a second one, then you should definitely split the bill. Forget ideology, it’s just the decent thing to do.

Further relevant articles include:

Forget the booty call, the foodie call is the new dating (out)rage (6 July 2019)

A third of women only date men because of the free food: study (21 June 2019) USA

Beware of ‘foodie call’ dates who are just in it for a free meal (30 August 2017) USA

Women forced to pay for dates (9 March 2017) Video

How is it okay for a stranger to pay for your first-date dinner because he’s a man? (27 January 2017)

6 Things a Feminist Woman Who Dates Men Should Look For on a First Date: Validate his every political and social view conforms to those you require. Offer to pay and think of him as cheap if he accepts (27 October 2016) Reddit mensrights discussion thread and linked article.

A Women’s Advantage (2016) Concerns research into OKCupid users, not just regarding who pays on dates but also courtship protocols generally.

Guy texts girl demanding she pay him back after he bought her a drink at a bar (12 September 2016)

“I’ll be more cautious who I take free drinks from in the future!” Free?

Woman Says She Was Left With $163 Tab After Man She Met On Dating Site Dined, Then Dashed (3 August 2016) with related Reddit discussion thread here

“Operation: No Pay May”: A Houston Woman Attempts 31 Dates in 31 Days (31 May 2016) with related Reddit discussion thread here

The new economics of dating: Do men still need to pay? (24 May 2016) Reddit discussion thread and linked article

For men, finding love is still more costly (16 May 2016)

I said no to a second date so he asked for a $40 refund (11 May 2016)

That’s rich… women decline to date men who earn less – however good looking (3 February 2016) UK

Shock horror! A man feels I should pay my own way on dates. “I feel this is a dealbreaker.” Welcome to feminism (9 November 2015) Reddit mensrights discussion thread

Attention, straight men dating women: Here’s why they still — yes, still — expect you to pick up the check (28 August 2015) with related reddit discussion thread here

Paying while dating: meet the men who pick up the check (and those who don’t) (28 August 2015) and being in The Guardian we just know which team they’ll be rooting for.

valentines-spend-ecommerce

Two Strong INDEPENDENT Feminists demand men pay for dates (18 August 2015) Video and related reddit discussion thread (Quote: “I understand most women don’t want to be used as sex objects. Maybe they should stop looking at men as success objects“)

Ladies, It’s Now Your Turn to Pay On the First Date (9 January 2015)

Cha-Ching! Guess who spends the most in love? (February 2015)

Valentine’s Day spending driven by single men in search for love (12 February 2015)

Why women should never go halves on a date (27 November 2014)

Why I’d never be with a man who always pays the bill‘ (28 September 2014) Article unconvincing but see readers comments

It’s 2014: Why are men still paying for first dates? (18 September 2014) and here’s the feminist perspective on that issue (though note that not all readers agreed with her assessment)

Helena Andrews explains why men should always pay for dinner by Janet Bloomfield (9 September 2013)

Should I Pay for a Date Simply Because I Am the Stud? (6 September 2013)

I just made a woman pay for her own food, her reactions were interesting (19 November 2014) Reddit mensrights discussion thread

Valentines Day, by the numbers (14 February 2013)

Almost all of the articles on this subject in the mainstream media focus on heterosexual couples, and are set in the context of first world western countries.

The heterosexual focus is interesting as my initial impression is that courtship costs are approached in a somewhat more egalitarian manner in gay/lesbian relationships. I have listed some articles about splitting costs & gay/lesbian dating and courtship below. If readers can suggest more and/or better references then please leave a message.

Who Should Be Paying on a Same Sex Date? (11 May 2016)

Who picks up the tab on a date between two gay people?

When two gay men (or ladies) go on a date who pays?

Men do more of most things … and earn a target painted on their backs

Way back at the start of my career I was responsible for coordinating the undertaking of a major social survey. It was a face-to-face survey using randomly selected households across an area of the city. It asked people a wide range of questions about their leisure pursuits and many related issues. It covered the whole range of leisure activities from solo and/or passive and/or indoor pursuits to team sports and various outdoor activities. I designed the questionnaire in conjunction with staff from an internationally-recognised market research company.

The results of the survey were very interesting indeed. One of the most striking, and unanticipated findings was the huge degree of difference along gender lines, but not in terms of participation rates in specific activities, in terms of participation in anything. There were very few activities in which girls/women participated more than boys/men, and many in which they rarely/never participated. I remember thinking “what on earth are they doing with their time?” And no, this disparity could not readily be put down to obvious factors like a lack of facilities for women/girls.

Now many years later I know that there are many other areas of life, in which men are much more actively involved than women. I know there are contributing factors applying to some women in some situations, for e.g. many women are more involved in child rearing than are men. Feminists will no doubt point to further unseen patriarchal forces at work that, they say, prevent or discourage the participation of women in many fields. Whatever. For the purpose of this post I won’t delve into minutiae. And i’m not judging either men or women on the basis of this situation. Let’s just run with the simple premise that, overall, men do more of most things.

If men are doing more of most things then it follows that men are probably doing more bad things (including relatively benign things that feminists think of as being bad). And they are doing most of these things in the public gaze. This includes everything from driving more, being elected to government more, starting and running companies more, fighting more, etc.

The fact that men are doing more ‘bad’ things makes them an easy target for demonisation. It attracts a swathe of criticism in and of its own right. Women are also doing all of the same things but to a correspondingly lesser extent, so can more easily be portrayed as ‘better’ persons.

Today I came across an old article that took it one step further. It was in that tedious and censorious pro-feminist rag, ‘The Guardian‘.

In this article men are doing more of a good thing, but are still being castigated for doing so. Because if men are more actively involved then it can only be because women are being excluded, or men are going behind their back, etc. Feminist logic 101.

The article is called ‘Why are so many white men trying to save the planet without the rest of us?‘ (8 May 2014) and here is the related reddit mensrights discussion thread

This author – again, in the Guardian – says that men leave more comments in online fora … and this is mens fault? silencing/oppressing women? He even suggests that women are using male names online for “protection” – huh!? When surveys show that men attract more online harassment/trolling than do women? There is some serious denial going on here.

What can I say? I’ll come back later when I’ve cooled down a bit, and tell you

See also:

Men Do All the Hard, Dangerous Work, Then Women Follow and Whine, “Give All of Good Stuff to Me” (25 July 2016)

Promoted Comment: What have men ever done for society? (29 August 2015) Reddit mensrights discussion thread

Pray men never take a day off (18 September 2013)

 

Two days each year to celebrate men

International Men’s Day

International Men’s Day (IMD) is upon us again – it’s on 19 November in case you weren’t aware. Last year, as is usual, it passed with barely a blip on the media’s radar screen. At least, that was the case here in Australia.

Some government agencies, such as Australian Human Rights Commission, pointedly ignore IMD. You can read in this post how they refused to make mention of Men’s Day in their web site, whilst celebrating International Women’s Day with much vigor. I contacted the Commission a few weeks back to see if they had anything planned for this year, but received no response. I also did a search of their web site and turned up nothing.

I have yet to read any announcements regarding how Australian Federal and/or State/Territory governments plan to mark IMD2016, so I sent out a series of tweets seeking that information. I planned to include responses onto this page, but there were none. I also did google-searching but didn’t manage to identify a single IMD2016 event taking place in Australia. If you know of one then please contribute a comment.

The United Nations demonstrates its pervasive gynocentric bias in part through its failure to list International Men’s Day in its online calendar of events. If you disagree with this omission then contact your country’s UN representative and let them know how you feel. Details concerning Australia’s representative to the UN are provided here.

And I doubt you would be surprised to learn that feminists hugely enjoy mocking IMD. Yes indeed, and now repeat after me, “yeah, but everyday is men’s day!

Go ahead and savor the following selection of their outrage:

Did you forget International Men’s Day? Don’t worry – the men’s rights activists did too (22 November 2017) with related Twitter thread.

Nothing happens on International Men’s Day because men don’t really care about men and/or won’t organise anything. Paid for by? With admin assistance provided by which government agency? etc

There’s an International Men’s Day too. There probably shouldn’t be (9 March 2016)

Happy International “But when is Men’s Day?” Day (8 March 2016)

Every day is Men’s Day. That is why we need Women’s Day, by Sarrah Le Marquand (7 March 2016) Australia. But, oh, look at the push-back by hundreds of readers.

Things we could celebrate on an International Men’s Day, by Ben McLeay (7 March 2016)

(You might also be interested to read my post in relation to ironic misandry)

The one ray of sunlight was the decision by the UK Parliament to convene a debate regarding men’s issues on IMD2016, mainly thanks to the dogged persistence of one man – Philip Davies. (Here is the associated parliamentary briefing paper)

Glen Poole (UK) does a great job discussing the various issues commonly raised in relation to IMD in a series of articles entitled ‘Dumb reasons why we don’t need an International Men’s Day’ … refer Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 and Part 5

The most recent development seems to be feminist spokespeople acknowledging International Men’s Day, but in a very back-handed way, see for example.

The following items concerning International Men’s Day may also be of interest:

Wikipedia entry for International Men’s Day

International Men’s Day – This Australian web site is by the Dads4Kids Fatherhood Foundation

International Men’s Day UK

Meme cards showing that ‘Not every day is International Men’s Day’

In 2018 the White Ribbon organisation in Scotland and Ireland organised events regarding men’s violence to women – on International Men’s Day (see related tweet)

Today is International Men’s Day, but we are too busy denigrating males to celebrate it (19 November 2018)

International Men’s Day used to be dismissed as a joke, but are people finally taking it seriously? (19 November 2018)

International Men’s Day: The unsung event which champions men’s rights around the world (19 November 2018)

After years of campaigning, the world is waking up to the need for International Men’s Day (19 November 2017)

Why do we even need an International Men’s Day? (18 November 2017) by David Walsh

10 reasons we should be celebrating International Men’s Day (17 November 2017)

Whilst IMD is routinely ignored by govt’s and corporates alike, one company (Citi) uses the event to tell men that they should lift their game via the hashtag #ChallengeAllMenToDoBetter (17 November 2017) Pathetic

Women’s Network tries to hijack International Men’s Day! (22 September 2017) Video. You couldn’t make this stuff up … IMD2017 event organised by women’s group behind shield of a seemingly non-existent men’s group, with proceeds to pro-feminist group that ignores male victims of domestic violence. The organiser was asked to provide details of the ‘Australian Men’s Network’ but instead chose to lock her Twitter account (@Awn001Fran). You can watch a Paul Elam video regarding this event here, and here is another quality video from The Independant Man.

If you’re against International Men’s Day, you’re not a true feminist (20 November 2016)

An open letter to feminists on International Men’s Day (19 November 2016) Video

The issues that really matter on #InternationalMensDay (19 November 2016) So let me get this right, feminists insist that the sole focus of the domestic violence debate should be on female victims because they constitute the majority. Here however the author fem-splains that the “issues that really matter” on IMD are issues affecting male minority groups not all of the nasty unwashed white CIS-HET majority.

10 reasons we should be celebrating International Men’s Day, by Glen Poole (18 November 2016)

The silent sex shouts against inequality, by Philip Davies (17 November 2016)

‘International Men’s Day’ isn’t just unnecessary – it’s dangerous (16 November 2016)

Resistance to International Men’s Day (15 November 2016) USA

London feminists believe the nearest Saturday to Friday 25.11 is… er… not 26.11, but 19.11 (International Men’s Day). Doh!

Philip Davies’s men’s rights victory turned me into a blubbering wreck (4 November 2016) UK

Should feminists celebrate International Men’s Day? (1 November 2016)

Prime Minister and Government become first to endorse International Men’s Day: “A Landmark Moment” (27 October 2016) with related Reddit discussion thread here.

MP Delivers Spectacular Putdown Over International Men’s Day (27 October 2016) UK

Men rejoice: You get World Men’s Day on Nov 19 (11 March 2016) Malaysia

Why bother with International Men’s Day? (8 March 2016) Video. India

Male feminist tears over #InternationalMensDay (18 November 2015)

York University in the UK distances itself from proposal to mark IMD (17 November 2015), University branded “disgusting” and “shameful” over decision to cancel Men’s Day celebration, and The University of York Doesn’t Care About Male Suicide. Further developments at York here.

Video and commentary on Jess Phillips MP scoffing at an application by Philip Davies MP for a debate on men’s issues on International Men’s Day (30 October 2015) UK Video

Townsville City Council celebrates IMD (22 November 2014)

Why Every Man and Woman Should Celebrate International Men’s Day by Glen Poole (18 November 2014)

Men too need gender equality: Activists (18 November 2014)

International Men’s Day 2014: Suicide, Rape and Paternity Leave Key Issues to Tackle by Lydia Smith (19 November 2014)

International Men’s Day: Being Co-opted? by Paul Elam (19 November 2014)

mensday

Men’s Human Rights Ireland responds to feminist censoring of IMD (2 December 2014)

International Men’s Day: What are we celebrating? (19 November 2014) I think this fellow, Michael Kimmel, really does richly deserve the title of ‘mangina‘, and most of his readers feel likewise … based on the comments here.

Here are 9 facts that show every day is International Men’s Day (19 November 2014)

Should there be an International Men’s Day? (19 November 2013)

Resistance to International Men’s Day (undated)

The Commissioner for discrimination against men (21 July 2012) It was suggested that the Australian Human Rights Commission provide some information in their web site to mark International Men’s Day (as they do every year for International Women’s Day). The response was this was not possible due to resourcing constraints. Now, many years later, there is still no mention of International Men’s Day within the AHRC web site. A truly pathetic effort from a very gender-biased organisation.

Fathers Day

Father’s Day is Oppressive (2 September 2017) Video with 800 comments

‘Not everything is about same-sex marriage’: Father’s Day ad deemed too ‘political’ for TV (2 September 2017)

There’s a push to rename Father’s Day “SPECIAL PERSON’S DAY” (24 August 2017)

Women’s Blog Jezebel Throws a Tantrum Over Father’s Day (18 June 2017)

Why do we spend less on Father’s Day than Mother’s Day? (15 June 2017)

Fox News: Why are feminists rallying to ban Father’s Day (19 November 2016) Video

Father’s Day ambushed (8 September 2016) NZ

In praise of fathers, mostly (17 June 2016)

Anti-domestic violence campaigner Rosie Batty uses Father’s Day to encourage positive role modelling (6 September 2015) And of course if I were to use Mother’s Day as an op to tell women to reflect on not abusing and neglecting their children, everyone would be ok with that, right?

Father’s Day Spending to Reach $12.7 Billion, According to NRF Survey (8 June 2015) Just over half of that spent on Mother’s Day

Angel Soft Commercial Feminism Viciously Attack Fathers Day Masculinity (16 June 2015) “My problem with this commercial is that if the reverse was done on mothers day, there would be a shitstorm. If both were considered acceptable, I wouldnt care at all. but they aren’t” (‘Trigunesq‘).

Here is a follow-up article by a single mother, and here is another article claiming that the company in question has apologised for their ad. And here Toyota does it right!

Father’s Day: Celebrating ‘Good Enough’ Fathers Is a Waste of Time (13 June 2013)

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/27q731/well_fathers_day_is_soon_approaching_you_know/ 

Feminist Fathers Day 2014 (I’m including this ghastly anti-male diatribe here sarcastically. It shows just how far some feminists want to shame men and feminise boys. As usual there are some great insights and colourful retorts amongst the readers comments).

There was also the massive internet prank that was #endfathersday and which highlighted both the sociopathic nature and herd mentality of many feminists – as discussed herehere and here

Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from “legitimate feminist dialogue” (July 2014)

http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/endfathersday-happy-fathers-day-you-piece-of-shit/

See also:

Melanie McDonagh: Why International Women’s Day is embarrassing (11 March 2015) and related reddit mensrights discussion thread

Do feminists have any male heroes?

sanata

Many feminists, particularly those towards the radical end of the spectrum, make it crystal clear that their view of men falls somewhere between cockroaches and rats. I was wondering then if there were in fact any men at all, amongst all those rapists and wife-beaters, that they looked up to.

What put this idea in my mind was this article about Angelina Jolie’s new film, ‘Unbroken’ about war hero and athlete, the recently deceased, Louis Zamperini  … Angelina being of course quite an icon for many within the  feminist movement.

jolie

Do feminists, for example, revere the efforts of a man like Ian Frazer, the inventor of a ground-breaking vaccine for cervical cancer? So I googled on “do feminists have male heroes”, but my net came up almost empty. There were just a couple of questions asked on Yahoo which attracted very few responses:

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080422012628AA1yjIs

In this discussion ‘Dee’ responded thus:
Generally feminists don’t like heroes, because a hero is a big, strong, masculine, courageous, male warrior. Like Hercules or Achilles, or Perseus, or Conan the Barbarian.

And most feminists really seem to hate strong, powerful, masculine men. (Especially the radical feminists, who want to make all men more like women, and make all women more like men. That is, they want to erase all the natural and wonderful differences between the sexes. How boring.)

… I outgrew my youthful feminist idealism years ago, when I realized how ridiculous “mainstream” feminism was becoming. And now it’s even worse, it has become downright man-hating nonsense that is destructive to men and women alike. But the good news is that when anything becomes that absurd, then inevitably the pendulum will start to swing back in the other direction, there will be a growing backlash against the radical extremes. And the backlash against feminism is well underway, and getting bigger every year.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100315103356AAMxWXw (nil responses to this thread!)

Oh, and I did come across this post in some pro-feminist guy’s blog.

See also:

A 97 year-old World War II veteran jumped out of a plane to recreate his D-Day parachute drop (6 June 2019) Video

The Carnegie Hero Fund. Something seems to be wrong here – doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of feminist recipients. Surely there should be a gender quota.

Stranger gives up first class seat to mother travelling with sick daughter (9 December 2018)

Student union leader vows to paint over First World War mural of ‘white men’ (25 October 2018)

‘If we don’t we’ll die’: Inside the most heroic story of September 11 (22 July 2018)

Woman saved from Las Vegas shooting by Marine she met just hours earlier (4 October 2017)

I Think ‘Dunkirk’ Was Mediocre at Best, and It’s Not Because I’m Some Naive Woman Who Doesn’t Get It (28 July 2017)

The link to this article read “Hero motorists pull children from sinking car” (2 May 2017) USA. As is usually the case, if it’s a good news story about men then gender is not specified. If the reported incident had reflected poorly on men, you can bet that the writer/editor would have used “men” rather than “motorists”.

Melbourne man pens tribute to taxi driver ‘hero’ (23 January 2017) Australia

These four Italian policemen cleverly disguised their toxic masculinity (10 August 2016)

Teen With Cerebral Palsy Walks For First Time To Get Diploma (1 June 2016)

Young man helps elderly lady across the road (10 March 2016) Video

Good Samaritan’s final good deed hasn’t gone unnoticed (1 March 2016)

San Bernardino hero’s selfless last act (6 December 2015) USA

The Beauty of Men, by Mark Dent (16 November 2015)

When A Man Couldn’t Feed Himself At McDonald’s An Employee Did The Most Awesome Thing (24 September 2015)

‘If We Left, They Wouldn’t Have Nobody’ (21 November 2014)

Sydney siege: Hero Lindt cafe manager Tori Johnson ‘was an amazing person, a selfless person’ says former boss (16 December 2014) And yet just a couple of days earlier the same pro-feminist news outlet published a sexist hit-piece entitled ‘Proof that men are bigger idiots than women‘ lampooning men for their propensity to take dangerous risks.

When the world goes to hell, it’s men who die to save others (11 September 2014) Good post and I liked this reader’s response to another comment that was posted by a feminist:

“Terrorist attacks are mostly done by men. I don’t mean to counter your post, I just think it is incomplete” (‘Peacock’)

“Honestly – this kind of myopia leaves me speechless. Of course most really, really bad stuff is done by men. Most really really good stuff is done by men as well.

For one simple reason – men are more exceptional then women. In any given population you will find far more male CEOs, Nobel Prize winners, breakthrough scientists, great leaders, sublime artists then you will women – about 8 times more in fact.

You will also find more male criminals, homeless, clinical imbeciles, despots than women – about 8 times more in fact.

For one very simple reason – eggs are more valuable than sperm. Nature needs us to evolve so it experiments, pushes the envelope of what it means to be human. And you don’t experiment with the most valuable part of your population – young fertile women – which of course means women in general.

Women, as a group, cluster much more around the average then men do, as a group.

This doesn’t mean that women are incapable of reaching the top, or the bottom, just that there will always be fewer of them there, compared to men.

And yet feminism continues to take the worst of men and use them to characterize all men, and take the best of women and use them to characterize all women. And use the fact that there isn’t a 50-50 split of men / women in EVERYTHING to justify it.

So men are demonized and many women are instructed to take paths they are not best suited for. End result; men disengaging and women increasingly relying on psychiatric drugs and other self destructive self medication to get by.

The sad thing is – you know who used to control the really bad men and help the ones at the bottom? The vast mass of balanced, reasonable, fair and decent men in the middle. The very men feminism has attacked because it knew these men were too good natured to truly fight back.

And they haven’t. Instead they are walking away. You might want to give that some consideration before you join the chorus implying that all men are as bad as the worst of men. And please don’t try to deny this was the implication of your post – leaving me speechless is one thing – don’t make me think you are feeble minded as well. I have a mother, wife and daughter whom I love very much but I know they tend towards plausible deniability when they think they can get away with it.. But they at least try to control it and see the men in their lives for what they are rather than what the herd tells them to think.

So should you.” (‘Cadders’)

Kevin Vickers saved many lives by quickly taking down a gunman in the Canadian parliament building. Everyone would be dead if he had waited for a feminist to intervene. But masculinity is toxic … until society needs someone to step up. (24 October 2014)

How the Nobel Prize has favoured white western men for more than 100 years (8 October 2014)

Feminism has slain our protectors (12 September 2014)

Fierce compassion: Why men’s compassion is unappreciated (11 September 2014)

male_heroes

General Douglas MacArthur’s speech on “Duty, honour, country”

Ambulance officer pays parking fine for grieving daughter

100% of firefighters who died were male

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/i-dont-believe-it-grateful-stepdaughter-kristin-russell-buys-her-stepdad-dave-the-same-model-porsche-he-sold-to-marry-her-mother/story-fnixwvgh-1226987023475

http://www.cotwa.info/2013/04/a-broken-man-goes-boston-marathon-and.html

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/father-son-team-hoyt-run-final-marathon-in-boston-competed-in-1000-races

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-this-really-happening-waitress-gets-the-surprise-of-her-life/

http://www.channel5.com/shows/the-limbless-mountaineer/episodes/the-limbless-mountaineer

http://www.anzacs.net/Simpson.htm

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-violence/the-misandry-behind-misogyny/

What would happen if no men showed up for work today? (17 September 2013)

Elsewhere in this blog you might also be interested in reading:

On chivalry

How men are portrayed … Haw Haw Haw! The jokes on us

How tragic that feminists ignore their role in demonising men